On MSNBC, Angelo Carusone discusses how right-wing media have for years dreamt of prosecuting Democrats over Russiagate
Carusone: “Fox News did 2,000 segments alone on that very topic”
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From the August 4, 2025, edition of MSNBC's The Weeknight
MICHAEL STEELE (CO-HOST): Breaking tonight, another new distraction from the Trump administration designed to pull focus from the Epstein scandal. Moments ago, Attorney General Pam Bondi directed federal prosecutors to launch a grand jury investigation into the origins of the Russia probe. Specifically, the investigation will look into criminal referrals from Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, who made unsubstantiated allegations that President Obama and his aids in the intelligence community began the Russia probe to ruin Trump's chances of becoming president. Folks, there is no evidence that ever happened. Zippo, nada, none.
In fact, the idea that the Obama administration conspired against Trump was contradicted by a Senate Intelligence Committee review overseen by none other than Marco Rubio, who was the committee chairman at the time. Joining us now, Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor with the Justice Department's National Security Division, and our friend Angelo Carusone, the president and CEO of Media Matters for America.
ALICIA MENENDEZ (CO-HOST): So, Brendan, how many times during your time at DOJ were you asked to secure a grand jury investigation and indictment where it was not clear who was being charged, what the charges were, or the timeline you were operating on?
BRENDAN BALLOU (GUEST): Zero times. So this announcement, as you said, said nothing about who's being investigated, what they're being investigated for, what the charging instrument would be, what the charges would be. The thing though that surprised me the most or that was most interesting to me about what wasn't announced was who was actually gonna do the investigation. They just said that it was going to be an attorney in the Department of Justice.
MENENDEZ: An unnamed federal prosecutor.
BALLOU: Exactly, which suggests to me that they have not yet found a credible US attorney to take this on.
SYMONE SANDERS TOWNSEND (CO-HOST): Why do you say that?
BALLOU: Well, you know, one thing that I always say when I come on here is that the Department of Justice depends entirely on its credibility. You know, there are some hack US attorneys that have gotten nominated and confirmed, unfortunately, that would be more than happy to take on an investigation like this. But if you actually want to secure an indictment in front of a grand jury, you know, 18 or more citizens, you need somebody that actually is going to be credible in front of them. And that they didn't announce this suggests that they haven't found that person yet.
MENENDEZ: Auditions are ongoing.
SANDERS TOWNSEND: I just think this is crazy because it's just a distraction. It is a huge distraction, and it just goes to show that they are spiraling. But this is the — the Russia probe is another conspiracy theory that Obama and all of these folks within the Obama administration trumped up these charges and these claims against Donald Trump because they didn't want him to win and that they were conspire — that they wiretapped his phone, right, during the -- these are all conspiracy theories.
STEELE: But wasn't there evidence that the Russians did try meddle in our election?
SANDERS TOWNSEND: Yes. Yes. But it's another conspiracy theory, and I think because Donald Trump has seen — I mean, I don't know. You tell me if the radio people have picked this one up.
But he's seen what the Epstein, you know, controversy around that conspiracy theory has done to him — it has not helped him. His wobbliness because it's like, well, why don't you wanna distance yourself from all the pedophilia, is not giving us more answers. It's providing more questions. On this, maybe his administration feels like, well, the people are with me on the Russia probe.
I'm on the up and up on that conspiracy theory. So let me just — let me just mix that thing up on the table, and perhaps that'll distract people to look over here and not over at this thing.
ANGELO CARUSONE (MEDIA MATTERS): Yeah. It's the safest possible thing that he could tap into as it relates to these conspiracies and these narratives. And it's also one of the promises that they've been making. And I — and, you know, when I heard this, I thought all the way back to November of 2017, because I remember a Rush Limbaugh segment where he basically laid out a story that sounded exactly like what was reported today, a fantasy, a fiction in which Trump's Department of Justice literally just has a non-named US attorney launch an investigation to get James Clapper and John Brennan for Russiagate. I mean, it's literally -- they plucked this from a from a Rush Limbaugh segment, and it wasn't just then.
And this gets to your point about it being safe. But that one, you know, he was such a potent storyteller that those things have legs. And when he sort of laid that architecture out back then, and I would say it existed, you know, around it, but he told it in such a concise way. If you then pull the thread in that — from that time period on, just a couple years, maybe, you know, a year and a half or so, eighteen months, Fox News did 2,000 segments alone on that very topic, a notion of this investigation being launched by the Department of Justice that would then expose and prosecute these people.
So to your point about it being safe, it is the safest possible play. And the two other corollaries to it are, one, this is part of his campaign promise. You know, he launched in Waco, promising to be revenge. This was one of the revenge items that he would go after these individuals and prosecute them. And the other is that and you, I think it's -- I'm so happy you started with the frame that it's about his base.
Because it's not about the rest of MAGA media or Trump aligned media. They're not — they don't care. See, they have not been percolating and swimming in this Russiagate stuff for the past eight years. Trump's base has the —
MENENDEZ: I'm sorry, what are we then defining as his base here?
CARUSONE: I would say it's the people who are listening to talk radio eight years ago and had cable that have now finally got Roku, but don't know that it's Roku and still think that they are flipping the channels on a cable box and are now, for the first time ever, maybe listening to YouTube or watching YouTube because Tucker Carlson is no longer on Fox. Right? That's his base. His base is the, you know, talk radio listener or the Fox News viewer, and the people around it, the ones that have been percolating in QAnon and this. It's not the Joe Rogan audiences or the Theo Von audiences or the bro-casts.
They were in it for the conspiracies against the abstract deep state, but they never cared about Russiagate. In fact, they love Obama. So, this doesn't actually do anything for them, and I think that's the last thing I'll say is that it's a little landmine there because it's going to make some of those people really mad. They love Obama. They're gonna think, what is this guy doing? I don't know anything about Russiagate. This feels like a distraction to stop us talking about your pedophilia defense.
STEELE: Well, I wanna stick with that for a little bit because you do open up a little bit of the other side of this in terms of how this is being fed by the administration in the first instance to that base. It's not and this, you know, we sort of touched on this last week, that you got to be careful about who the players are here. They're you know, the Joe Rogan types, the folks who are the influencers, the ones who are kind of playing him in the space at that level are not the base. They're not the rank-and-file moms and dads out there who put the MAGA hat on. In fact, the people burning MAGA hats probably you know, that's a whole another conversation. But it does beg the question of what does this grand jury process do that either legitimizes or delegitimizes the story?
BALLOU: Yeah. You know, the thing is I was thinking you're talking about all these conspiracy theories. It seems like the worst thing that could happen here is actually that they bring an indictment that gets to a verdict. You know?
If you're basing a case entirely on conspiracy theories and then you bring it to the public, eventually, that's going to have to get judged by a judge and by a jury. You know? And so I suspect what's going to happen here is you are going to see an endless series of leaks and innuendo talking about a sprawling investigation, but they will wait as long as they possibly can to actually indict someone.
STEELE: Does that I — I guess the question for the table then, is does that then feed sufficiently that beast that's out there hungering for the conspiracy, hungering for the day-to-day narrative to keep reeling them in closer and closer. And the linkage potentially to the Epstein ultimately because one conspiracy feeds into another. Right?
SANDERS TOWNSEND: Yeah, it does. I mean, I guess, I just feel like, you know, where I'm from, the streets say a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich if they want to. Okay? So I find it very hard to — I mean, I just think about the fact that they indicted, this Justice Department, LaMonica McIver on what could be — what I believe are trumped up charges. So who's to say that they won't trump up charges and indict the ham sandwich version of this conspiracy theory, where you already have Obama on record in 2016 saying Russia didn't tamper with election machines, where you have Obama on record in 2016 talking about that Russia can only impact us if we abdicate our values. Like, these are all lies. But they are the Justice Department.
They can actually do a lot to be hurtful.
BALLOU: Oh, absolutely. But watch what happened in Congresswoman McIver's indictment. You know, the DOJ got ripped to shreds in its first court hearing there, and the lawyer that was actually assigned to the case was reassigned and I think has left the DOJ entirely. You know? You see the other indictment that happened next to that, the indictment of Ras Baraka, the newer mayor, that was dropped entirely. So, you know, they might get a quick headline by bringing an indictment, but in terms of securing convictions, you need more than conspiracy theories.
SANDERS TOWNSEND: Well, maybe this is gonna give me some hope today. Brendan Ballou, Angelo Carusone, thank you both very, very much.