HEATHER MAC DONALD (GUEST): It has no substance whatsoever and yet we're all supposed to pretend that these lies have actual flesh and bones on them. It's truly extraordinary. And so, arresting Giuliani, pretending that he's the sort of sphere of some domestic terrorist assault, and that that's what we have to fear in this country, not rioting, that is violating due process. You know, the criminal justice system now cannot treat police officers, I don't think from here on in, give them due process, because the threat of rioting is so big. That's what we have to worry about in this country. It's not the Stop the Steal people, however deluded they may -- may well be.
TUCKER CARLSON (HOST): So, I mean, do you feel, as a scholar, as someone whose life has been devoted to finding the facts about something and then presenting them as clearly as you can to people, the presumption behind that, I mean, that whole business, your life is predicated on the idea there are rational people out there, willing to change their minds based on evidence. I wonder if this shakes your faith in that.
MAC DONALD: It certainly does. I mean, I despair every day. I really do. I despair. I despair reading The New York Times and yet I have to do it. I wish I could cordon myself off from it. But the -- the amount of editorializing, and this myth that the problem in this country comes from right-wing white people is just extraordinary. So, yes, if we don't have facts, if facts don't matter, as you well know, the only alternative then is violence. Politics, as Aristotle said, is action through language.
MAC DONALD: That's the essential thing of politics. But if language doesn't work, human beings have two choices: politics or brute force. And how much longer we could continue talking past each other -- and the left plays dirty, because they, as you have been covering like nobody else, they are shutting down our speech. And without that, what do we do?