On MSNBC, Media Matters' Angelo Carusone explains how right-wing media are undermining court rulings against Trump by claiming a “judicial coup”
Carusone: “What we're seeing is the right build up a cause of action ... to start broad-scale defying the rule of law and neutralizing the power of the courts”
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From the May 23, 2025, edition of MSNBC's Deadline: White House
ANGELO CARUSONE (PRESIDENT, MEDIA MATTERS FOR AMERICA): When it comes to this discussion around the judiciary and around the rule of law, it's already demonstrated that it's accelerating. And Mark said something before about JD Vance, you know, being that this is the world that he lives in. It's true. You know, a big part of his job, right, it seems to be to exist online and to engage with those spaces. And if you look at what's taking place in these online spaces, in these big programs, in the right-wing media, the predominant story outside of some of these few other breakthroughs, one of the big things percolating for the past few weeks has been this very issue, and what they are describing this as is post-election interference. “Judicial coup” is one of the most commonly used terms all across the board there. They describe this as the most significant act of Article 3 subversion since the Civil War.
And the other big thing that I keep hearing, and this is the alarm bell, a big one. There's plenty, but this one really does resonate, which is that one of the things that Matt Gaetz said on War Room, which is [former Trump adviser Steve] Bannon's show, is that the most consequential test for members of the Trump administration will be are they willing to defy unlawful court orders. And a big part of that story, that narrative, is gearing up for, ultimately, a showdown. And that's the point of the power of the judiciary is that a lot of their stuff, their power really comes from their credibility with the space. Are people willing to tolerate that? And right now, they seem to be potentially losing that narrative war, because what we're seeing is the right build up a cause of action — a legitimate cause of action from their perspective — to start broad-scale defying the rule of law and neutralizing the power of the courts. And that's what Project 2025 said. They didn't have any specific plans for the courts. The only thing Project 2025 really ever said about the courts was that all the other things that we will do and execute will have the net effect of neutralizing the court's power to fundamentally check the unitary executive. And I think, you know, JD Vance basically summed it up in two sentences.
NICOLLE WALLACE (HOST): I mean, I accept that this is the project, but if they really thought that they could successfully take the rule of law sort of off the playing field, why were they all so hungry for pardons?
CARUSONE: That's a good question. I mean, a big part of it was to demonstrate — well, two things. One, to reward. To reward. To demonstrate, to actually give people and to keep people engaged. And the second is, I think, ties in with that Gaetz thing, is that they were going to do a bunch of things that were going to have to push the envelopes, and they wanted it to show people that they were willing to support them. It's, it is, you know, authoritarianism, especially at this stage, a lot of it is theater. And those things are, you know, just parts of the play. And that's why I do focus a lot on narrative dominance, because ultimately, you know, if it's a really scary story, you hide under the covers. And then a lot of things could happen outside the sheets.
It's the same thing here. Those pardons are as separate from the real net effect of them, whether they're even needed. They are a really important part of the story, especially for the cast of characters needed to do this cultural transformation. And that's really what we are a part of, a very broad-scale cultural transformation that will have downstream effects on government and the rule of law, but it is so much bigger than just the politics. And, you know, I think ultimately the politics are the stopgap, but I think you're so right to focus on the tariffs and the economy because that is the one really big tangible thing in the short-term that we can do to, you know, put a speed bump into this major transformation. But it is so much bigger than that, unfortunately. We are in a real big fight.