Voter integrity commission's Kris Kobach on MSNBC: “We may never know” if Clinton really won the popular vote in 2016

Katy Tur: “How do you say, 'We may never know the answer to that question'? Really? You really believe that?”

From the July 19 edition of MSNBC Live:

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KATY TUR (HOST): Do you believe Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3 to 5 million votes because of voter fraud? 

KRIS KOBACH: We may never know the answer to that -- we will probably never know the answer to that question, because even if you could prove that a certain number of votes were cast by ineligible voters, for example -- 

TUR: Is that why you guys -- is that why this commission [on voter integrity] exists, because the president believes that he would have won the popular vote? 

KOBACH: I'm glad you asked that question, because actually, that is not the reason that the commission exists. It's not to justify, to validate, or invalidate what the president said in December or January about the 2016 election. The commission is to look at the facts as they are and go where the facts lead us on voter fraud and threats to the integrity of our elections. 

TUR: So, again, you think that maybe Hillary Clinton did not win the popular vote? 

KOBACH: We may never know the answer to that question. 

TUR: How do you say, “We may never know the answer to that question”? Really? You really believe that? 

KOBACH: Well -- what I'm saying is, let's suppose that the commission determined there were a certain number of votes cast by ineligible voters. You still won't know whether those people who are ineligible voted for Trump or for Clinton or for somebody else. And so, it's impossible to ever know exactly, if you took out all the ineligible votes, what the final tally would be in that election. You can obviously, based on the data, you can make some very educated guesses.

TUR: So were the votes for Donald Trump that led him to win the election in doubt as well?

KOBACH: Absolutely. If there are ineligible voters in an election, people who are noncitizens, people who are felons who shouldn't be voting according to the laws of that state --

TUR: So, is our democratic process completely broken? Should we not be confident that when we cast a ballot that anyone we're voting for is actually going to get elected fairly?

KOBACH: That's exactly the reason the commission exists. 


TUR: The president tweeted right after the election that he would have won if it wasn't for all of this voter fraud. When he came into office, he said he was going to create a voter fraud commission. That is how this commission was born, and you're saying right now that this commission is not born to prove what the president believes, which is that he would have won the popular vote “if it wasn't for all of that voter fraud,” and he says every single vote that was cast went to Hillary Clinton. Every one of those questionable votes that he claims exists went to Hillary Clinton. That's not why the commission exists?

KOBACH: No, no. The purpose of the commission is not to validate or invalidate anything the president said in January regarding the popular vote of 2016. 


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