JOHN ZMIRAK (SENIOR EDITOR, THE STREAM): Eric, in your book Letter to the American Church, which I can't recommend highly enough, you talk about how did the Christian church in Germany let the Nazis take over and the Holocaust happen? And the answer is very simple: Mike Pence. The Christians in Germany were like Mike Pence. Mike Pence is so proud of the fact that he certified fraudulent electors because he followed all the rules of the Constitution as his high-paid lawyer told him would be the safe thing to do. Mike Pence didn't do the constitutional thing. He did the safe thing. Mike Pence has done the safe thing his entire life. If the early church had been like Mike Pence, there would be one very safe Christian neighborhood in the suburbs of Jerusalem and nowhere else on Earth. Christianity would exist in one gated community with a nine-hole golf course and a very nice little social club and very good school system. And it would still exist, it would be the most obscure little religion, this little suburban cult compound on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Christianity would not have spread two streets over because I heard that street's not safe. If Mike Pence represents Christianity, it's the biggest joke in the history of the world. And it was so discouraging to hear him talk over and over again at the debate about accepting Jesus as his personal savior. And I thought that the son of God saves your soul, and this is how you turn out? Oh, my gosh. Well, this is not an advertisement for Christianity. This is a scandal.
ERIC METAXAS (HOST): John, honestly, you you could not have said it better. What you just said, I mean, this is effectively what I'm writing about in my new book, what I wrote about in Letter to the American Church. And everywhere I go around the country, I'm saying some version of what you just said, that if you can apprehend what God did for you on the cross, if you claim to believe that that's true, as all Christians claim to believe, if you get that, you will live your life radically. You will live your life fearlessly. If you don't live your life fearlessly, it's proof that you don't have a clue of what happened. And when you claim to understand what happened, claim to have faith, God says it doesn't look like you do. Your actions don't show that you have faith.