On Deadline: White House, Angelo Carusone discusses what election deniers are planning for the midterms: “Maximum destruction in as many places as possible to weaken and put as much sand in the gears”
Carusone: “Jeff Clark and Cleta Mitchell did this long thing with Steve Bannon where they were essentially speaking to county officials and citizen challengers. ... While they can't do systemic purges, their point was you could do individualized purges.”
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From the September 29, 2026, edition of MS NOW's Deadline: White House
NICOLLE WALLACE (HOST): Angelo, there's no way to model who's going to wake up on Election Day and actually go vote. I mean, it's just something that if if anyone could get that right, if any of us figured that out, we wouldn't be here. We'd I don't know — whatever billionaires. Actually, billionaires seem to go to the White House. I don't think I want to do that. But the piece that to me is the most exciting is what will the American people do. And I think on the pro-democracy side, they are so steeped in the knowledge of all the things that Trump has done to try to take away their right to vote and all the things that even the good Republicans did to try to take away their right to vote, to appease the lie that somehow fraud is why Trump lost in 2020. On the right, all they've heard is that elections stink, that they're right. I mean, they have done nothing other than suppressive messaging on the right.
What do you — what are you looking for, or what do you think the open questions are in terms of turnout on the right?
ANGELO CARUSONE (MEDIA MATTERS): So a few things to consider, and it sort of ties in with what Mark was saying before about this building to a crescendo. You know, I think when we think about that, a lot of times, they well, it's going to be bigger. Right? It's going to be more federalized, more nationalized. But one of the things that's happened in the last few days, and it started on Friday, is that they've actually instead of it being bigger, let's consolidate as much power as we can. It sort of moved to this position of let's scatter. Jeff Clark and Cleta Mitchell did this long thing with Steve Bannon where they were essentially speaking to county officials and citizen challengers is what they're describing them as, to do as many things as they can with respect to the save, the list, that database. While they can't do systemic purges, their point was you could do individualized purges. You can do as many individual ones as you can. So cross cross check it as much as possible and try and and try to do as many individualized complaints.
And how that ties in with your question, because I think it reinforces what we're starting to see in this space is, one, they're going to light as many fires as they possibly can. And then, two, when the courts don't allow them to exercise federal power, which is their default, they've already started to deploy their backup plan because, sure enough, you know, this one train is always on time, and it's this idea that the caravan comes in October. And if you don't get out to the polls and do something, a bunch of immigrants are going to swarm in and put Democrats in power permanently. So there's no real, like — as you know, to note what people will do on Election Day. I mean, the reality is that people are really feeling it in their pockets right now.
But one thing that is going to be clear is that they're going to light as many fires as they possibly can and create as much confusion and chaos and further distrust and frustration that they hope, they don't have a plan after that, that they can leverage it in some meaningful way after, either to further undermine democracy or sustain power or just make it harder for Democrats to operate when they actually get back the gavel. And that's the one thing that is certain, is that the destruction, which is what their new approach is, is maximum destruction in as many places as possible to weaken and put as much sand in the gears of what they seem to sort of accept is going to be an incoming sweep of Democrats in power.
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WALLACE: It was interesting today to hear Jack Smith talking about all the bulwarks of our democracy. They weren't valiant Democrats like Marc Elias. They weren't journalists. They were lifelong Republicans like Rusty Bowers and Mike Pence. Are we pinning our hopes on more Mike Pences to get us through the midterms?
CARUSONE: I mean, part of the problem with that is that many of the figures in 2020 that had — that were part of the election denial feedback loop that Mark described now have government positions. You know, people — Heather Honey at the Department Homeland Security, she has a role related to this. You know, that was filled by Ken Cucinelli in 2020, and he is one of the people that said, no. You can't seize the voting machines. You know, like, as you know, what a Republican who said, okay. Well, there's lines here. We're not doing this. She was an election denier. She that was her that was her thing in 2020. That was jam that helped get her in this job.
And there are other figures just like that. And so you have people that are in official positions of power that sort of came from this world. They weren't just steeped in this sort of or pickled in this misinformation. They were creatures of this swamp. And then simultaneously, one of the things that's been brewing over the last few years is exactly what Marc described, which is that you have all these figures. They don't have the big numbers anymore. They don't have the mass majority, but they're fundamentally antidemocratic. They've been acting accordingly, but they have fervent passionate individuals in key roles that can create disruptions. And then the real question comes down to, do the rest of us have this stomach for the fight? Because they don't see Election Day as the end. They see that as just another step in a longer effort, and I do worry that the larger poison that Trump has pumped into the system has really took it taken hold, not just today, but, I mean, you know, the vice president thinks the LA mayor's race was stolen, for goodness' sake. I mean, that's an extreme ridiculous thing, but it's now normal. And so I don't know how many of those figures that you described remain, but I do know how many of these swamp creatures have positions of authority, and they're the ones that are going to create the types of disruptions that could just go on for quite a while.
WALLACE: Let me just inject some some real politics into this. I mean, it presumes that they will find armies of people for whom the election lie, which I agree with Marc Elias, is a litmus test for Republican policymakers, that that weighs heavier on their worries, on their spouse's worries, on their kids' lives than the cost of groceries, the cost of gas, the lies and betrayal over the largest sex trafficking elite ring in global history in the Epstein files, and the promise to never have another forever war and take the country to war and spend our treasure in Iran. It assumes that the foot soldiers of the big lie will view the election lie as bigger and more important and more of a gut shaper than the cost of living, the cost of a war with Iran, and the cost of a lie and a betrayal and being treated like a chump. I mean, do you think that there will be sort of an army of people for whom that is the case, Angelo?
CARUSONE: No. They're not. There's not. They're saying it when they call into the shows. But that's the problem. The politicians are now no longer worried about their constituents. They only care about a constituent of one, Trump. But as you note, there's still laws of political reality that will eventually settle in, and their own people are pushing back very intensely against them. And it's not just going to be reflected in the votes. It's in the larger conversation and the follow through. And it doesn't mean they can't do damage to the institutions, but that rally that they saw in previous things, that's not going to be there for them right now. It just isn't.